Director of Product Design at Webflow
This interview is with David Hoang, Director of Product Design at Webflow and Design Partner at On Deck. He discovered he was colorblind at a young age and is still discovering his neurodiversity.
... encouraging designers, if you are comfortable, talking about (your disabilities) openly because you don't know how that might affirm someone going through similar challenges and how inspiring and motivating that might be for people.
David Hoang is a design leader with a passion for creative, product, and technology. With experience in brand, marketing, engineering, entrepreneurship, design, and product, David frequently speaks about building cross-functional teams, integrated UX, and experience prototyping.
Key Points
Designers are problem solvers with the ability to find different pathways to be successful
It's also important to create different pathways for users to be successful in your designs
Be mindful that tiny changes in your design can have great impact towards accessibility
The impact of not being excluded by your own disability is huge
We have been missing opportunities to teach designers about Aria and the foundations of accessibility
Think about "systems design before design systems"
Consider how different accommodations benefit disabled people, like working remotely
Do not put the burden of accessibility education on people who are disabled
Interview with David (he/his)
DH David Hoang
My name is David Hong, I am Director of Product Design at Webflow, and also a Design Partner at On Deck as you know.
NK Nikki Kuhn
Great, thank you. Um, and could you tell me a bit about your disability or disabilities?
DH David
Yeah, maybe the one I can talk about is diagnosed and something I've struggled with my entire life, and then maybe I could talk about the other thing, because it's not quite diagnosed but it's something I know you and I have talked about neurodiversity to, and maybe just want to talk about some, some general challenges in that regard. But just want to say I'm not I'm not diagnosed in that way, but the first one is I'm colorblind. So I think, as a designer, as you can imagine, the first thing people always ask you, even, even when they mean it as a joke or just to be playful, is like how can you be a designer if you're colorblind? Right, color is such an important part of what we do as designers, how can a colorblind person be in design? And the undiagnosed one that I want to share about is because I thought it was just something that was a personal struggle I had in my life, and it's somewhat starting to uncover a little bit more as I like really understand neurodiversity and really learning a little bit more about that field, it's still very new to me. But, I often describe myself as a very visual learner, and I get really overwhelmed by giant documents, and a lot of structure around them. You can imagine for a design leader, or just leader in general, is you're supposed to be organized. You're supposed to be concise, and for me, it's hard for me to to remember things, it's hard for me to connect the dots and I need to take a lot of visual notes and have a lot of reminders for myself to do that. So, I guess in the midst of, like, being a designer and a leader, those are kind of two things that you often don't think about, being a colorblind designer and then also really struggling with like, retaining memory, retaining things and remembering.
NK Nikki
Yeah, and thank you so much for sharing all that with me. I can certainly relate to the second half of that. Having to take visual notes and being less than structured, is a nice way of putting it. So can you tell me when did you discover your disabilities?
DH David
Yeah, I learned I was colorblind pretty early, when I was a when I was a kid, so I would say I was like 9 or 10 years old when I learned I was colorblind. Because for some reason, as a kid I don't even know why I want to do this growing up, but I was always fascinated with like aviation and remembered telling myself like, “Oh I would love to, you know, learn to fly or even go into Air Force or something” just as a kid does. Finding out you're colorblind you're disqualified, right, at least that was the rule at the time. I think it still is. And just really understanding, like, that's the first time I felt disabled in that way and I think growing up, disabilities, like, I thought of it as physical disability, so being able to kind of understand, like, or at least, like, have more physically apparent disabilities then, you know, being colorblind. So, it was the first time I felt, like, I felt like having a disability and as a kid I didn't really know what to think of it. Right, and then, again, as I mentioned, I always remember just being colorblind and studying a lot of art classes, it was really hard to navigate that and, and just remember conversations with colleagues about like how can you be an artist if you're color blind and going through some of those challenges.
NK Nikki
Yeah, did you have to take an art theory class or a color theory class I mean?
DH David
I did. And I think the famous thing is just like in color theory books or in health classes when they do the, I forget the term for it, but it's like the the color dots, and you're supposed to be able to visually see something in there and just remembering like I don't see anything. Like, everything looks the same, and in that regard, so yeah, color theory was something where was definitely a struggle for me if you can imagine.
Nikki
Yeah, yeah, I, yeah couldn't imagine how to get through that class. Have you ever seen a Little Miss Sunshine?
DH David
Yes.
NK Nikki
I feel like your story reminds me of that, you had that, like, Little Miss Sunshine moment.
DH David
Oh yeah, that's right I totally forgot about that scene. Yeah.
NK Nikki
Um, so how, we discussed how color theory was definitely an issue, but how has your disability impacted your design?
DH David
Yeah, it's, it's an interesting question because I feel like, I almost want to say in some ways it hasn't. It's just different paths to solving the problem. Right and I think for me, because I'm colorblind doesn't mean I can't comprehend color theory. Right, I still understand primary, secondary colors and really, really approaching, like, what color choices, like, make good design. It just is a little bit of a challenge or it's something in the more written way, in that regard. And one way I've really coped with it and found different pathways is, I remember when I was doing a lot of Front End Web Development I would memorize a lot of these hex codes of, like, colors as opposed to remembering the visual colors themselves. So I know, I would know what hex codes, like, work well together in that regard, and I think that was something were starting to explore design on the web was really interesting because it was like a, like a written output as well, too, for me to be able to comprehend some of the things these things better. So for me, I like to think like it hasn't had an impact, but it's a different pathway, and I think that's the thing about having disabilities and designing, or just doing anything in your work, is you need to present different pathways for people to be successful and, in order to do that, and the same with kind of, what I described was some of the learning challenges I've had or being able to make visual connections, like, those are really important for me. So being able to have those venues where you can you can be best set up for success in that regard has been really important. And fortunately, you know, I've been in places where, at least from my perspective, I felt really supported in, in, in learning and coping with my disabilities, and this unfortunately not true in every place for people. But I think that's the important thing is, like, the the different ways of achieving a certain goal and outcome, for both cases that I struggle with, it is so important.
NK Nikki
Yeah, I really like that. In what ways have you felt supported and in what ways do you support others?
DH David
Yeah, I remember one of my managers, she just had this really empathetic moment where, I remember in a leadership meeting, we had this Google spreadsheet of just project status of how we're doing on certain product development initiatives for the quarter. And I remember she had this moment when she could tell I was, like, really like squinting my eyes and really struggling with following along. And what, what we had was, we had these circles, colored circles of project status, we use red yellow green. If you can imagine.
NK Nikki
Yeah.
DH David
And I think you know where I'm going with this, is like, I could not tell if we were just crushing it and we're just ahead on our goals or we were severely behind and everything.
NK Nikki
Yeah.
DH David
There's maybe one or two yellow projects right, in that regard, but it's something, like you know, at a stoplight you can tell, there's other visual indicators to do that. And I remember after that meeting I told her about my disability and the next meeting we had, we added different shape indicators too. So like, the green was a play button and being able to distinguish that, and I think it takes people to really be mindful of, like, how it affects people and being able to make those tiny changes in that regard, I think, goes, goes a really long way. You know, as we think about accessibility there's always this temptation to try to solve it overnight. And there's a lot to do, so I really commend that. But, I think a lot of it is kind of building in those habits and recognizing, like, those, like, micro challenges that that people endure. So that's one example of someone really supporting me in my career just even seeing like, okay, like, that's the first time at a leadership position I felt my colorblindness be an impact, and it's so small it's just, like, but the impact is huge because it's, like, I can't participate in this conversation because… I guess I could ask people tell me what colors, like, what certain status are, but it's just a different, you know, different conversation, but even a small thing like that made made a significant difference.
NK Nikki
That's great. And I think it's a good segue to my next question too. As you mentor new designers and whatnot, what are ways in which they can be more accessible? And what are what are things that you wish they would build into their practices more often?
DH David
Yeah, I think, you know, it's interesting, because with design systems it's a big emphasis of something for people to learn. And I feel, I say we as a design practice generalizing that, like, specific people. But I think we often miss, you know, teaching Aria and teaching some of the other basic foundations of accessibility that goes with great, like, web design, mobile design. And it seems to be such a huge opportunity within design systems to teach that and talk about that and that scalability. And it just feels sometimes, like, we miss out on meaning to cover that, and I don't know if it's something where it's lack of time, lack of knowledge, or, you know, some other factors in that regard. But I think that's something accessibility can really play into is teach it as a foundation of design, as a part of that. And, I think, you know, there's, there's a lot I still need to learn about accessibility. However, I do think one thing that helped me is W3 schools like really learning about, like, constructing on the web, and really learning about that world of accessibility. Previous lifetime I did a lot of work on on iOS platforms and I think apple has done a tremendous job with accessibility and how they build things out. So I think, yeah, just really treating it as a foundational element versus something added on after the fact. And that starts with teaching designers on that as a foundational skill.
NK Nikki
I couldn't agree more. And if there was one thing that you would have designers change tomorrow, what would you recommend?
DH David
That’s a good question, there's so many things. Let me think. So if there's one thing I could change… I think… I say this a lot, and what I mean by this saying, so the saying I express to people is, “think about systems design before design systems.” And I think it's really understanding the, at the macro level, the systems that have in play in human behavior, how they interact with design, whether it's software, or, or hardware. My background is software, so it's kind of speaks at that, but really kind of understand, like, some of those foundational applications and elements before getting too, too rushed into some of the decorative parts of design. And trust me, like, I do feel the decorative parts is really important as well. But just really honing in on the system design aspect and, I think you'll see, because if you do that, it's like, it's clear how D&I, inclusion and accessibility play into what we do as designers at that macro level even before we're even thinking about what the software is, in that regard.
NK Nikki
Is there something that employers can do to be more inclusive?
DH David
Yeah, I mean there's a lot of different things I would say. It's interesting because there's a lot of conversations around remote work,m and returning to the office. And one thing I don't hear people talk a lot about is the benefits that remote work has for disabled people, and how that really helps and benefits. Like, not having to commute or not, depending on your disability, right, there's a lot of benefits that remote work can enable. So that's one, whether you're going back to the office or having a hybrid model, I think, remote accommodations and really thinking about what accommodations people need is super important. I think continued education too, one of the things we do a Webflow is there's, we, we have guest speakers come in and really talk about accessibility and talk about inclusion. We're exploring content around just learning more about ableism and what that means, and really, like, exploiting the other sides of that. Like, we have a really great head of D&I who, Maria, who spearheads a lot of this and I think a lot of it's just continued education. I think the thing that's important is, that is continued learning. And it's, it's very easy to shame people or feel ashamed about the lack of progress that has been made on accessibility and the people who are disabled, like, feel that the most. So I think the one thing employers can do, and also employees can do for disabled team members, is to, to not put the burden on disabled people to educate and and teach these things because they've spent their entire lives having to do this and it's, I can only empathize, it's like exhausting. You know for me, I think, you know, and each disability has different impacts and accommodations in that regard, you know, so colorblindness is very different than another, like, another disability someone else might have. So really understanding, like, what those, what those use cases are, like, those are some ways to support from an employer perspective.
NK Nikki
This has been really wonderful and I really appreciate your time. Is there any last parting thoughts that you'd like to include?
DH David
I mean, let me think, no, just thank you so much for doing this. I think it's important. I think, you know, one thing I realized is when I started being more open about my disability, and other challenges I have, I realized so many other designers go through similar things, too. And it's nice to know. I feel being just, having a disability has, has made me more thoughtful in some aspects of the design. Right, and again, because I'm colorblind it makes me think about what other disabilities other people might have, it's not like I'm just optimizing for color blindness. But even just knowing that this is one of many disabilities at various levels of severity, that when people get through that, just becomes more empathetic. So I think just, I guess parting words is encouraging designers to, if you are comfortable, talking about openly because you don't know how that might affirm someone going through similar challenges and how inspiring and motivating that might be for people.
NK Nikki
I really love that. And I think that's a great way to end. Thank you so much.
DH David
Thank you for having me.
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